Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Southern Bluefin Tuna, Kingies, Marlin and other game fish.
Blueyed1
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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby Blueyed1 » Fri May 19, 2017 12:24 pm

......NCR we're all eagerly awaiting for the next snippet......keep posting....

Joe



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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby frozenpod » Tue May 23, 2017 1:27 am



Finally had a chance to watch the videos.

There is a massive difference between these rods.

Rod action is part of the difference.

The main difference is the rod butt length, ie the distance between the rod butt and reel seat.

Small changes in this length have a massive effect on the force applied to the person holding onto the rod.

Longer the butt the more drag pressure you can apply.

Wingas rod butt was way too short! Whilst the forces can all be calculated in detail running a few rough numbers around (based on passed experience of the rod and butt length) winga would have had at least 50% force applied to him for the same drag pressure.

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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby ncr1 » Wed May 24, 2017 11:33 am

Some good points there FP! And thanks to Wooly for setting up the other sticky - it's great to know you are all appreciating my input.

Apologies for taking so long with the next post - I've been distracted a little with medical appointments and a few other things. But should hopefully find more typing time on the weekend.

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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby DougieK » Wed May 24, 2017 1:02 pm

NCR i've really enjoyed this thread even though i don't fish from a boat. The discussions about drag pressure and rod design are fascinating.

If anyone is interested I can draw up a 45 minute, 3 day a week strength and conditioning program with the specific focus on increasing endurance for game fishing applications.

Wonderful thread, thank you for the information.
16/17 Comp total 64cm

"If nothing easy is worthwhile, then LBG with lures must be just about the most worthwhile thing on the planet" MTF 2014

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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby DougieK » Wed May 24, 2017 1:11 pm

frozenpod wrote:


Finally had a chance to watch the videos.

There is a massive difference between these rods.

Rod action is part of the difference.

The main difference is the rod butt length, ie the distance between the rod butt and reel seat.

Small changes in this length have a massive effect on the force applied to the person holding onto the rod.

Longer the butt the more drag pressure you can apply.

Wingas rod butt was way too short! Whilst the forces can all be calculated in detail running a few rough numbers around (based on passed experience of the rod and butt length) winga would have had at least 50% force applied to him for the same drag pressure.



Slightly off topic. If i'm fishing with an adjustable reel seat on a 14 footer, and i'm slide baiting or ballooning targeting bigger pelagic species, would you recommend using the reel seat in the highest possible position? Is there a formula or a guildline for how far up the rod my reel seat should sit in the context of extended battles with bigger fish? At the moment it's adjusted for casting, wondering if I can sneak an advantage in by using it either higher or lower. It's adjustable enough that I can move it after casting a slide anchor.
16/17 Comp total 64cm

"If nothing easy is worthwhile, then LBG with lures must be just about the most worthwhile thing on the planet" MTF 2014

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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby frozenpod » Wed May 24, 2017 1:43 pm

You wouldn't be using a harness in this application?



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ducky
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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby ducky » Wed May 24, 2017 2:08 pm

Don't need a harness for swell sharks dougie.
Fishing Victoria Species Comp: 317cm's

Redfin 50cm, Yellowbelly 44cm
Snapper 90cm, Rainbow Trout 37cm, Estuary Perch 31cm, Murray cod 65cm

Johand
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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby Johand » Wed May 24, 2017 2:37 pm

Hi Dougiek. When i had custom rods made up i was using overhead reels ,the width of your shoulders was the distance between
hands if to far apart when casting you tend to take one hand off the rod.If to close together you cannot load the rod.
Also when casting look at your feet they should be around the same distance as your hands apart.Also to close together
you cannot load the rod and to far apart you cannot use your body and shoulders as you should.
Then again i was using 8oz to 10 oz sinkers big baits and sliders.
Must say this works for me.
Sorry about the hi jack

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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby ncr1 » Wed May 24, 2017 4:06 pm

Like FP was suggesting, it really depends on whether your setup will enable a kidney or back harness. If no, you're going to have to rely on a lot of hand and arm strength and therefore, where the reel is positioned is very much a personal choice based on what gives you a comfortable grip of the foregrip above the reel.

On the other hand, if you are setup with a harness, the reel represents the connection point where the kidney/back harness straps are connected to the lugs on top of the reel. When fighting a fish, there shouldn't be any great need to hold the foregrip at any time, it's just a matter of leaning back and using the weight of your body against the pull of the drag/fish. And here is where you have a 'lever' situation where the connection point acts sort of like the fulcrum, and an increased length of the rod butt below the fulcrum allows you to lift heavier weights. I hope that makes sense, but I'll detail it more in the next post.

If you take a look at Kilsong's setup in the second video, you can see that he has the gimbal right down towards his knees, almost as far as it will go. He also has the reel sitting right in front of his vision allowing him to comfortably wind the handle, adjust the drag and evenly distribute the line on the spool. It takes a longer rod butt than usual to achieve this positioning.

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Re: Portland Tuna -What I've Learnt

Postby ncr1 » Tue May 30, 2017 2:56 pm

Gaining Leverage – Physics Works Against You!

A proper discussion about fishing rod action and design would be lacking without first exploring the physical principles of the lever and leverage. A famous quote by Archimedes was ‘give me a lever and a place to stand I and will move the earth’. For a less extreme perspective, consider the force a Collingwood supporter can impart at the head of a set of bolt-cutters. The same principle will also apply for the curved end of a crowbar (Yes Maggie supporters, I can hear your response: “Leva princsapoles. Wat da eff?? Ah, stuff it, time 2 steal sum sh**!”). And the longer the handle, the more force we can exert for the same amount of effort. Sounds great hey! Unfortunately, when you’re the angler holding onto your favourite game outfit, and you’ve finally connected to the fish of a lifetime, you have actually found yourself on the short end of the stick (literally). Based on the principles of physics, the fish actually holds the leverage advantage!

For those who already own a pre-rigged 24kg or 37kg outfit, I have an exercise for you. Firstly, track down a dead weight – let’s say 13kg if you own a 24kg outfit, and 20kg for a 37kg outfit. The dead weight can be anything you are able to easily connect a fishing line to, e.g. some dumbbells from your home gym; a bucket fitted with a strong handle that is filled with an appropriate volume of water, etc. Now, head out to your shed or backyard with your pre-rigged outfit, a gimbal belt, and your dead weight. Securely (and safely) connect you wind-on leader or double to the dead weight. Initially, instead of using the rod to lift the weight, simply pick up the weight with your bare hands and lift it up towards your chin 2-3 times, in a similar motion as if you were lifting with the rod. Reasonably easy, hey! Now, with your gimbal belt strapped on and both hands firmly on the foregrip, try to lift the same weight with the rod. Bloody difficult, isn’t it?!! This exercise should also give you an idea about what you’ll be up against if you want to utilize your outfit to its maximum potential (as discussed in the previous post).

These differences you felt are the principles of a ‘third-order lever’ in action, which in contrast to first- and second-order levers, does NOT offer a mechanical advantage. In the context of a fishing rod under load, the fulcrum is the rod butt (e.g. for gamefishing, where the butt slots into the gimbal belt), the effort point is where your hands are located on the foregrip or where the harness is clipped onto the reel lugs, and the load point is at the rod tip. For explanation purposes, let’s start by saying that the rod has no flex whatsoever, like a broomstick. When a fish is peeling line away from you, the load the fish is pulling against will equate to your pre-defined drag setting coming off the rod tip (excluding the effects of water drag on the line). This will be your output load. The amount of output load will determine how much force you the angler, must apply to the effort point to keep the rod in the same position, or if you apply more force, to allow the rod to be lifted upwards. Unfortunately, because a fishing rod is a third-order lever, this means that the effort point will generally be positioned closer to the fulcrum than it is to the load point, meaning there will be less overall load at the load point (what the fish is pulling) in comparison to the overall load at the effort point (what the angler is pulling). That’s why the dead weight you lifted in my previous exercise felt so much heavier when it was lifted with a rod in comparison to your bare hands.

third order lever.jpg
third order lever.jpg (8.54 KiB) Viewed 175 times


However, there are ways to greatly reduce the overall load at the effort point (i.e. how much force the angler has to pull against). This is done by moving the effort point closer to the load point. The most basic example of this would be to just move your hands further up the foregrip. Alternatively, if you’re going to use a harness, it can also help to move the position of the reel further up the rod (i.e. have a longer butt section) provided the setup remains comfortable and the reel is still within easy reach. The other option for reducing the overall load on the angler, is to move the load point closer to the effort point. Put simply, get a shorter rod. That’s why your trusty twelve-foot surf rod might not be the best choice for gamefishing.

The other advantage we have up our sleeves with fishing rods (in comparison to the broomstick) is that they deflect or flex. In a situation where a third-order lever is able to flex, it essentially means that the position of the load point changes (i.e. rod tip flexing down towards the water), while the fulcrum and effort point remain in the same positions. The greater the deflection, the shorter the overall ‘effective length’ of the rod will be (i.e. the straight-line distance between fulcrum and load point). You can see in the picture below that ‘blank D’ has a shorter ‘effective length’ than ‘blank A’. And having a shorter ‘effective length’ means that the load point has been brought closer to the effort point, meaning less load on you, the angler.

[img
c73mh-deflection.png
c73mh-deflection.png (56.96 KiB) Viewed 175 times
][/img]

One of the more striking differences in Kilsong’s vs Winga’s videos (see previous post) was the difference in flex/deflection/action of the rod they were each using. Winga’s T-curve deflected to only the second or third roller down from the rod tip, whereas Kilsong’s rod was able to deflect right down to the reel seat at maximum load. So even though Kilsong’s rod had a greater overall length than Winga’s, the parabolic bend allowed the ‘effective length’ to be shortened significantly, thereby greatly minimizing the effort the angler had to exert.

So, if physics is telling us all this, then why aren’t all standup game rods as short, with longer butts, and heaps of flex? Well, there’s a variety of reasons why this isn’t the case, and I will go through them in my next post.



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