Back in lockdown again.

[happyfriggincamper]

I disagree, at some point provided that everyone has had a chance to be fully vaccinated then we have to end lockdown. It becomes a personal choice to be or not to be vaccinated. As it should be. The chance of hospitals being overwhelmed is probably the biggest issue and one that I don’t have an answer for. I suspect this time next year a lot of anti vaxxers will change their minds anyway which should ease the strain on hospitals.

If you have been given the opportunity to get vaccinated and refuse (which is your right), the hospitals should have the right to prioritise vaccinated patients before you...simples

Should people promote going down the path of medical apartheid - in all fairness and for the health interests of the population and system this should not stop here and be extended to assessing situations where people have the option to make personal choices that can become a risk to being detrimental to their own health and burdening the healthcare system.

Those that don't exercise the minimum recommended amount, drink beyond the recommended intake, smoke, eat unhealthily, unbalanced BMI etc all contribute to taking up hospital beds (which could be avoided) that cost taxpayers and the state money. If these people were coerced to make better life choices no doubt we would see positive impacts to those in genuine need of health services and the cost to run them.

We already tax smokers and drinkers more to help recover some of the additional costs they impose on the health system, and as a form of coercion. There’s lots of debate around sugar and fat taxes too, and some countries have already implemented them.

So maybe the answer is to simply deny the Medicare rebate to unvaccinated people and use the money saved to build and staff more ICUs.

This is an interesting proposal - the Medicare component. It's still a form of segregation but if this is the path that people are going to be coerced and manipulated into eventually, first take is it is probably as fair and coerced and balanced segregation as you can get.

Taxing only gets you so far in a small demographic range to drive people into thinking and acting holistically about managing their health in a way that limits their impact on our health care systems. When society is moved to cashless and governments have opened up their access to personal data even more - it would be easy to track and penalize peoples personal choices that risk impacting the cost of running x services.

[4liters]

I guess the other way to look at it is that the voluntarily unvaccinated are already segregating themselves from society. Vaccination is as much about the greater good of the community as it is a self interested action. There are plenty of people who the vaccines will not protect due to compromised immune systems or because they are not eligible to receive them (i.e. young children). It also helps reduce the likelihood of new strains emerging. The more people who are vaccinated the better off we all are.

If the voluntarily unvaccinated don’t want to be part of the community effort that helps those people should they be given equal access to other aspects of the community, like healthcare?

[sandef]

Our health care professionals pledge to care for people regardless color ,race, religion , economic standing and poor life style choices. We endeavor to treat all comer's with dignity and note that people are free make their choices about their health

[Mattblack]

I disagree, at some point provided that everyone has had a chance to be fully vaccinated then we have to end lockdown. It becomes a personal choice to be or not to be vaccinated. As it should be. The chance of hospitals being overwhelmed is probably the biggest issue and one that I don’t have an answer for. I suspect this time next year a lot of anti vaxxers will change their minds anyway which should ease the strain on hospitals.

If you have been given the opportunity to get vaccinated and refuse (which is your right), the hospitals should have the right to prioritise vaccinated patients before you...simples

Should people promote going down the path of medical apartheid - in all fairness and for the health interests of the population and system this should not stop here and be extended to assessing situations where people have the option to make personal choices that can become a risk to being detrimental to their own health and burdening the healthcare system.

Those that don't exercise the minimum recommended amount, drink beyond the recommended intake, smoke, eat unhealthily, unbalanced BMI etc all contribute to taking up hospital beds (which could be avoided) that cost taxpayers and the state money. If these people were coerced to make better life choices no doubt we would see positive impacts to those in genuine need of health services and the cost to run them.

If I take my child to hospital, I'll go postal if they send me home because the beds are full of unvaccinated, fat, smoking, alcoholics...just saying

Sorry I don't get your view on introducing medical apartheid rmeasures. Is it just limited to segregation relating to gene therapy vaccines for Covid?

Or you agree when we are talking holistically about personal choices people make and the impacts these can have on the health care system - that it's fair to also bring other personal life choices into consideration in order to ensure that the those who are in the most genuine need and have taken personal measures to maintain their health are prioritized over those that have made decisions that ultimately risk putting unnecessary stress on the system?

So I take it your not getting vaccinated? This video pretty much says it all...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2Gq6ROvBkU

[happyfriggincamper]

If you have been given the opportunity to get vaccinated and refuse (which is your right), the hospitals should have the right to prioritise vaccinated patients before you...simples

Should people promote going down the path of medical apartheid - in all fairness and for the health interests of the population and system this should not stop here and be extended to assessing situations where people have the option to make personal choices that can become a risk to being detrimental to their own health and burdening the healthcare system.

Those that don't exercise the minimum recommended amount, drink beyond the recommended intake, smoke, eat unhealthily, unbalanced BMI etc all contribute to taking up hospital beds (which could be avoided) that cost taxpayers and the state money. If these people were coerced to make better life choices no doubt we would see positive impacts to those in genuine need of health services and the cost to run them.

If I take my child to hospital, I'll go postal if they send me home because the beds are full of unvaccinated, fat, smoking, alcoholics...just saying

Sorry I don't get your view on introducing medical apartheid rmeasures. Is it just limited to segregation relating to gene therapy vaccines for Covid?

Or you agree when we are talking holistically about personal choices people make and the impacts these can have on the health care system - that it's fair to also bring other personal life choices into consideration in order to ensure that the those who are in the most genuine need and have taken personal measures to maintain their health are prioritized over those that have made decisions that ultimately risk putting unnecessary stress on the system?

So I take it your not getting vaccinated? This video pretty much says it all...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2Gq6ROvBkU

It would be good to close out one matter before opening up another. What's the basis of your reasoning for medical apartheid - and what's your reasoning for where the line gets fairly drawn without excessively infringing on peoples right to life choices?

[Mattblack]

Should people promote going down the path of medical apartheid - in all fairness and for the health interests of the population and system this should not stop here and be extended to assessing situations where people have the option to make personal choices that can become a risk to being detrimental to their own health and burdening the healthcare system.

Those that don't exercise the minimum recommended amount, drink beyond the recommended intake, smoke, eat unhealthily, unbalanced BMI etc all contribute to taking up hospital beds (which could be avoided) that cost taxpayers and the state money. If these people were coerced to make better life choices no doubt we would see positive impacts to those in genuine need of health services and the cost to run them.

If I take my child to hospital, I'll go postal if they send me home because the beds are full of unvaccinated, fat, smoking, alcoholics...just saying

Sorry I don't get your view on introducing medical apartheid rmeasures. Is it just limited to segregation relating to gene therapy vaccines for Covid?

Or you agree when we are talking holistically about personal choices people make and the impacts these can have on the health care system - that it's fair to also bring other personal life choices into consideration in order to ensure that the those who are in the most genuine need and have taken personal measures to maintain their health are prioritized over those that have made decisions that ultimately risk putting unnecessary stress on the system?

So I take it your not getting vaccinated? This video pretty much says it all...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2Gq6ROvBkU

It would be good to close out one matter before opening up another. What's the basis of your reasoning for medical apartheid - and what's your reasoning for where the line gets fairly drawn without excessively infringing on peoples right to life choices?

Mate I hear you, but desperate times call for desperate measures....who do you think an exhausted & frustrated triage nurse is going to prioritise when the sh!t hits the fan? It's going to be the 10 year old kid who didnt have an option to have the vaccine over the anti-vaxxer every day of the week.

[happyfriggincamper]

I guess the other way to look at it is that the voluntarily unvaccinated are already segregating themselves from society. Vaccination is as much about the greater good of the community as it is a self interested action. There are plenty of people who the vaccines will not protect due to compromised immune systems or because they are not eligible to receive them (i.e. young children). It also helps reduce the likelihood of new strains emerging. The more people who are vaccinated the better off we all are.

If the voluntarily unvaccinated don’t want to be part of the community effort that helps those people should they be given equal access to other aspects of the community, like healthcare?

I feel like you are sort of shifting the point of discussion now to be more us/them - and the perspective you are providing is not really accurate as what is happening is not voluntary segregation, it's coercion and manipulation.

If everyone had a truly free choice, which Scott Morrison has advised that the Australian people have (as well as subsequently owning liability for any adverse effects from the choice) - then state governments wouldn't be stripping away previously held freedoms and only offering them back with conditions attached. Further to this, we see constant gaslighting, double talk, media driven bombardment of fear mongering and hollow threats with barely any transparent data or evidence that what we are being subjected to is the best way for us to be dealing with the circumstances of covid.

All "following the science" means nowadays is only being allowed to listen to cherry picked facts from an echo-chamber of government approved and lobbyist supported medical professionals - no questions allowed to be asked or other independent sources consulted or debated. Not proper science - if it was fair, honest and in our best intentions there would be no need for AHPRA gag orders on medical professionals nor the need for big tech to be actively censoring ordinary people who have taken the vaccine in good faith and under their own choice from sharing their experiences afterwards.

If you support the introduction of medical apartheid on the purpose of reducing the amount of avoidable strain on healthcare systems - then you should be looking at the biggest contributors to unnecessary strain. By far and away this is related to personal life choices people make that drive obesity, diabetes and cancer related health problems. The data is barely there to indicate certain demo-graphical groups are excessively contributing to the strain on hospitals for severe COVID infections - especially when you compare it to the volume of people that are taking up resources due to medical conditions that are accelerated by poor personal health choices (whether it leads to morbidity or a long term ongoing strain on health resources). Further to this, these people with poor health choices are putting themselves at higher risk when catching any type of disease.

Other factors impacting hospitals right now is the overwhelming surge of self-harm and mental health related issues that have been in lockstep with lockdowns. Federal and especially state governments have also been almost criminally silent and playing down (e.g. blatantly lying) about any increases in self-harm related events that are making their way into the system - but a dribble of recent articles have finally come out in MSM (backed by many people in medical fields who are sharing their stories anonymously for much longer over social medial because they are gagged and scared by AHPRA compliance orders) that there has been significant increases in these events over 2020 and 2021 which are essentially taking up ICU beds and professionals time.

Why would they feel the need to hide this from the public and ignore it when making decisions on what actions they need to take to maintain the health and safety of its people along with the capacity integrity of our health systems?

[happyfriggincamper]

Our health care professionals pledge to care for people regardless color ,race, religion , economic standing and poor life style choices. We endeavor to treat all comer's with dignity and note that people are free make their choices about their health

Until they are forced to sign and comply with AHPRA orders or risk losing their license for using the skills and integrity they have been trained to practice. You are no longer getting professional treatment, you are getting government orders through a healthcare professional.

[Troy McLure]

It’s called the Hippocratic oath and has been around forever. It could be put to the test big time soon if this thread is anything to go by.

[Mattblack]

I guess the other way to look at it is that the voluntarily unvaccinated are already segregating themselves from society. Vaccination is as much about the greater good of the community as it is a self interested action. There are plenty of people who the vaccines will not protect due to compromised immune systems or because they are not eligible to receive them (i.e. young children). It also helps reduce the likelihood of new strains emerging. The more people who are vaccinated the better off we all are.

If the voluntarily unvaccinated don’t want to be part of the community effort that helps those people should they be given equal access to other aspects of the community, like healthcare?

I feel like you are sort of shifting the point of discussion now to be more us/them - and the perspective you are providing is not really accurate as what is happening is not voluntary segregation, it's coercion and manipulation.

If everyone had a truly free choice, which Scott Morrison has advised that the Australian people have (as well as subsequently owning liability for any adverse effects from the choice) - then state governments wouldn't be stripping away previously held freedoms and only offering them back with conditions attached. Further to this, we see constant gaslighting, double talk, media driven bombardment of fear mongering and hollow threats with barely any transparent data or evidence that what we are being subjected to is the best way for us to be dealing with the circumstances of covid.

All "following the science" means nowadays is only being allowed to listen to cherry picked facts from an echo-chamber of government approved and lobbyist supported medical professionals - no questions allowed to be asked or other independent sources consulted or debated. Not proper science - if it was fair, honest and in our best intentions there would be no need for AHPRA gag orders on medical professionals nor the need for big tech to be actively censoring ordinary people who have taken the vaccine in good faith and under their own choice from sharing their experiences afterwards.

If you support the introduction of medical apartheid on the purpose of reducing the amount of avoidable strain on healthcare systems - then you should be looking at the biggest contributors to unnecessary strain. By far and away this is related to personal life choices people make that drive obesity, diabetes and cancer related health problems. The data is barely there to indicate certain demo-graphical groups are excessively contributing to the strain on hospitals for severe COVID infections - especially when you compare it to the volume of people that are taking up resources due to medical conditions that are accelerated by poor personal health choices (whether it leads to morbidity or a long term ongoing strain on health resources). Further to this, these people with poor health choices are putting themselves at higher risk when catching any type of disease.

Other factors impacting hospitals right now is the overwhelming surge of self-harm and mental health related issues that have been in lockstep with lockdowns. Federal and especially state governments have also been almost criminally silent and playing down (e.g. blatantly lying) about any increases in self-harm related events that are making their way into the system - but a dribble of recent articles have finally come out in MSM (backed by many people in medical fields who are sharing their stories anonymously for much longer over social medial because they are gagged and scared by AHPRA compliance orders) that there has been significant increases in these events over 2020 and 2021 which are essentially taking up ICU beds and professionals time.

Why would they feel the need to hide this from the public and ignore it when making decisions on what actions they need to take to maintain the health and safety of its people along with the capacity integrity of our health systems?

I appreciate your views, but thank Christ you're the minority...hopefully most people get the inconvenient jabs so you dont have to. Odds are good that you'll be fine when you catch it, but please be considerate when you do & try not to spread it to the vulnerable.