For or against?

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smile0784
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Re: For or against?

Post by smile0784 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:54 pm

4liters wrote:
smile0784 wrote:I wonder why the goverment hasnt done more or they wait for it to be recycled by the tip trucks
The government is too busy taking donations from lobbyists representing special interest groups (in this case, the people making plastic bags), rooting staffers and generally acting like fuckwits to worry about actual effective public policy.
Have you watched thw politics in early hours of the morning

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Truedogz
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Re: For or against?

Post by Truedogz » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:19 pm

I don't support:

1. A union environment officer working on issues outside the immediate workplaces of members, and
2. I don't support the recycling of plastic bags.

The primary focus of union staff should always be the working conditions of their members - and I am a former union rep. More and more I see where the members no longer have control or minority views are not catered for. In fact I have witnessed first hand members being sold out to fulfill the political connections of the leadership. Note my comments in other threads on networks that can operate. The disconnect between average members and their leadership contributes to the slide in membership. They are paid to look after the conditions of workers and not to be social crusaders. Go read the book 1984 if you are not sure what I am talking about. So an officer working on improving recycling etc in a hospital in this union is fine, but going outside into the broader community in supermarkets no.

Why don't I support the recycling of plastic bags? For a number of good reasons. I totally support the recycling of scarce or valuable commodities as several posts have discussed, eg glass, aluminium some plastics. There are many environmental issues with plastic bags and no matter how hard you try you can't stop some getting out there. Lets say you save and recycle 50% of the bags. Once the population doubles you will have the same level rubbish out there - all you achieved was delaying the inevitable! The second thing is recycling involves using energy which has a whole lot of environmental issues associated with it. The push for recycling of some products comes from some pretty powerful vested interests.

The real solution in the long run are biodegradable bags and they can be made from 'organic' products (I've read studies where going down this path is more energy efficient than recycling). Encouraging people to bring their own permanent bags is great but there still will be the need for disposable wrapping.

As I indicated I am not against recycling where there is a net gain for the environment. Plastic bags are a big issue which needs to be dealt with. But I don't support 'feel good' environmental initiatives that have no gain or even harm the environment - there are already too many of them around. We need to make decisions made on reason and not emotion.

That's my two bobs worth.

Best Wishes

Truedogz

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Re: For or against?

Post by smile0784 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:09 pm

A few things good points there i hadnt realised.
1.Unions should be for the workers not the politicions.
2. The envirmental impact it takes to actually recycle the plastic

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Re: For or against?

Post by 4liters » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:31 pm

Truedogz wrote:In fact I have witnessed first hand members being sold out to fulfill the political connections of the leadership.
You've had dealings with the SDA?
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Re: For or against?

Post by Texas » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:41 am

4liters wrote:
Truedogz wrote:In fact I have witnessed first hand members being sold out to fulfill the political connections of the leadership.
You've had dealings with the SDA?
Wife has, know what you're saying

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Re: For or against?

Post by Texas » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:27 am

Plastic, although it breaks down, it never goes away
Fish are eating it, thinking it's plankton.
I don't know the answer.
I used to take my own bags, but, it was a pain for me & the checkout
We were all dupped into thinking that Australia was a great recycling country.
Then we find out that, we (virtually) don't recycle anything
We just ship it overseas.
Styrofoam is not recycled, ceramics are not recycled, tyres are stored in areas then they somehow catch fire (try and light a car tyre). Some glass is used for roadbase, newspaper /cardboard made into egg cartons & paper (?).
Asbestos, fiberglass, MBF and clipboard dust should not be breathed in.
Round-up (& others like it) are carcinogenic (Monsanto lied)
Monsanto is buying up seed companies, so you need to buy their seeds, to plant your crop. The seeds you buy will only produce a sterile crop.
Have we gone too far, probably. Our technology is not geared towards "cleaning up the mess", there's no money in it.
Some countries are talking about cleaning up their rivers, (such as the Ganges), now these rivers are way worse than the Yarra. They reckon they'll use dredges. I other words they're going to disturb the heavy metals, not good. The first problem is getting the population to stop using the rivers to dispose of (well) everything
In these countries, if each person threw a plastic bag into the river once a week, that is over
1 billion bags a week. Hard to imagine in our country with only 24 million (?) people.
With luck, one day they'll come up with an easy solution
I could go on for ages, for today, my rant is over.
Cheers Gra

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Re: For or against?

Post by purple5ive » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:45 pm

All they need to do is ban all plastic bags and introduce paper bags instead.
Problem solved.

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Re: For or against?

Post by Mattblack » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:31 pm

Picture says a thousand words...
Woolies.jpg

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Truedogz
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Re: For or against?

Post by Truedogz » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:26 pm

4liters wrote:
Truedogz wrote:In fact I have witnessed first hand members being sold out to fulfill the political connections of the leadership.
You've had dealings with the SDA?
My dealings/non dealings with the SDA are irrelevant to the specific point I was making re the activity of a union officer/s working on an issue outside that of the immediate workplace. For example, this is appropriate because it deals with the workplace:

"The new members’ building was designed with environmentally sustainable features, including solar panels, water tanks, improved waste and recycle sorting and an in-house compost system. Additionally, the branch employs an environment officer, runs an annual Health & Environmental Sustainability Conference and has introduced CPD focusing on how nurses can establish sustainability programs at work. In November 2017, ANMF was awarded the CitySwitch ‘Victorian Signatory of the Year’ award for its efforts."

It is not appropriate to go out on a wider crusade outside of your brief as it may not be supported by the members or in their interest - in this case it may or may not be - but there is a very real danger. For example, how would you feel if a union environment officer was networking with PETA to ban fishing? Or an environment officer in a union representing members working in a power station linking with groups trying to get coal fired power stations closed?

Unions of course have a long and proud tradition of being politically active via Trades Hall, the ACTU and the Australian Labour Party and it is via that pathway that outside issues should be addressed as it is more accountable. I am not being pedantic, having been involved first hand in dealing with corruption in a workplace, a Parliamentary Inquiry and a Royal Commission. Process is very important and unfortunately our society is less well educated about political and legal history, processes and conventions than it was in the past. Following appropriate pathways that are transparent for bringing about change might be slower but is in the long run safer for both individuals and society as a whole.

The specific incident I was referring to was union officials proposing changes to the conditions of workers - it wasn't the SDA. Older, experienced state delegates warned that the changes were not in the interests of members but only the government. Younger delegates were swayed by something which sounded good and was assured to be in their interests. It turns out we were correct with the changes having a serious impact. The officials were rewarded by preselection for parliamentary seats and other positions.

With regard to plastic bags I don't have a problem with banning supermarket plastic bags. But the fact is plastic wrapping will still be used for produce and may be mandated for health reasons. The simple fact is some will end up in the environment either in land fill or as litter posing threats to living things. The best response is whenever possible make all plastics and containers biodegradable.

Best Wishes

Truedogz

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Re: For or against?

Post by smile0784 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:40 pm

Mattblack wrote:Picture says a thousand words...
Woolies.jpg
Exactly.
Perfect example that something needs.to be done

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